The women’s discussion gets under way over breakfast at 14 North
The spotlight was put on the world of online gambling as seven women working in or closely with the sector gathered for a wide-ranging roundtable discussion.
Round the table were:
Micky Swindale, director, KPMG.
Sandra Skuszka, associate director, KPMG.
Lydia Barbara, head of Pegasus Gaming Solutions (Microgaming).
Donna Crellin, director of treasury, PokerStars.
Liz Aitken, management consultant, Newfield.
Jennifer Houghton, managing director, Annexio.
Susan Biddle, consultant in Commercial Technology dept, Kemp Little LLP
Many issues were raised in the breakfast time discussion at 14 North on the Quay in Douglas, including sexism, the importance of women in the gaming industry and the promotion of women working in the Isle of Man.
The gathering took place just hours after the successful KPMG eGaming Summit at the Villa Marina which drew more than 280 movers and shakers from the world of eGaming.
KPMG director Micky Swindale, who is part of the Athol Street firm’s eGaming team, chaired the meeting.
She began by acknowledging that there were no men in the roundtable and she recognised that on the ‘journey’ to gender parity, male involvement and commitment was needed.
She admitted: ‘I always feel a little bit uncomfortable with women only events because we would not feel comfortable about men only events.
‘But this is about role models and the chance to have an open discussion with women and particularly those that work for operators, as role models.
‘It’s about your experience working in the industry.’
The group agreed that they have no desire to exclude men from the debate and Donna Crellin urged them to look at the Cranfield report ‘Male Middle Management – the Lynchpin to Gender Equality’.
Micky said that while there were reports and statistics for other countries including the UK there was a ‘dearth of real statistics for the Isle of Man.’
She got the ball rolling by referring to a presentation made the previous day at the summit by gaming analyst Simon French. He noted that with the exception of Denise Coates at Bet365 he ‘struggled to think of another female executive of a gaming company’.
‘We are aware that women on boards is an issue not just for the gaming sector - but is it a bigger issue for gaming?’ asked Micky.
Jennifer Houghton, managing director of secondary lottery company Annexio said women working in gaming at a boardroom level might have a way of expressing themselves that ‘may be different to the way a man thinks’.
‘I believe that if you don’t have that gender variety when discussing new subjects, approaching markets and looking at player protection etc, it might not be discussed in the same way if in an all- male environment.
‘I believe it adds diversity to the strategy and structure and by having more women at an executive level it may broaden the approach to new ideas.’
Donna Crellin, director of treasury at PokerStars said: ‘I think there is a difference between having non-executives and executives on boards.’
She pointed to a report called Empowering Productivity – Harnessing the Talents of women in the Financial Services by HM Treasury and Virgin Money, which focused on the need to get more women executives and that was the next challenge, but highlighted that Rational Group, which PokerStars is part of, has 25 per cent female representation on its senior leadership team.
She said: ‘A lot of financial services companies in the UK are signing up to a charter to publish targets and that is an example that we can look to.’
Lydia Barbara of software giant Microgaming said that by not having women in decision making roles you are actually under-serving your market.
She said: ‘There are legitimate business reasons for having women in decision making roles, beyond the fact of fairness.’
Australian Liz Aitken of Newfield, a fast-growing gaming company based in the island, then pointed out: ‘Women gamble as much as men’.
She pointed out when doing some research in the run-up to the roundtable, that she had found that it was surprisingly hard to have a conversation of this nature with CEOs, even those that she trusted not to ‘run for the hills’, about why more women weren’t in the industry. But one perception is that women don’t gamble.
‘And I kind of checked this and that is complete bull. They are operating from a position where they are not even recognising women as a target audience for their products.’
Jennifer Houghton, currently the island’s Business Person of the Year following last November’s Awards for Excellence, said that in the secondary lottery markets ‘we always used to think that it was mostly males’ who were the main customers.
‘But we did some research and found that a high proportion of the players were women. ‘It surprised us and it was an interesting statistic for the UK market. It might of course be different in other countries.’
Donna Crellin of PokerStars pointed out that poker was still male dominated but PokerStars had branched out into sports betting and casino.
Respected gaming lawyer Susan Biddle of the London technology and digital media law firm Kemp Little, suspected traditional sports betting was probably more male dominated but as betting gets into more sports, the demographic changes.
She said: ‘The demographics for bingo and poker are probably completely different.
‘If you don’t represent that on the board then you are missing something.
‘And that is apart from having the different perspectives on board decisions.’
Liz Aitken then brought in the subject of sexism and the way women are portrayed in the industry.
She said: ‘Can I throw something controversial in here?
‘When you go to something like ICE, which is a really big deal [a huge annual gathering for the gaming industry in London] I can tell you that as a woman I get pretty offended when you see a new start-up marketing their product with young women in almost next to nothing. I think to myself ‘‘Is your product such rubbish that you need to stoop to this?’’ ’
The overall consensus around the table was that ICE, and the depiction of women in gambling marketing, is changing but just not quickly enough.
Donna pointed to the importance of discussing this traditional advertising tool. She said the topic came to the fore only recently when a campaign promotion for a product was planned featuring ‘two skimpily dressed women’.
She admitted it created a ‘huge conversation’ which touched upon discussions as to ‘whether this should be the way we are advertised.’
‘It was a heated and very long conversation with different opinions expressed.’
The women agreed it was good that discussions could be held like this in the workplace.
Lydia pointed out there seemed to be fewer sexist adverts like those mentioned in the discussion. They seemed to be becoming less common which was a good thing.
And the women in the roundtable were agreed: ‘Why offend half the population?’
Donna pointed out: ‘We had guys that were equally offended by it.’
‘They thought it was tacky. They probably would not speak up so much but they were talking in their groups.’
Liz said: ‘There is, what I call a wall of shame, at the gym I go to in London.
‘And the trainers put themselves up there [with pictures on the wall]. The males are looking good in their power shirts etc and looking masculine.
‘But the women trainers, they look like they are going for a porno shoot or Pirelli swim suit calendar. And I really took issue with the gym management.
‘It was amazing how many of the young men thought it was wrong too. But they did not feel able to speak up.’ Liz notes that this has now recently changed after nine months of lobbying the management and discussions with trainers.
Lydia said: ‘Before my time at Microgaming, when I worked in Malta there was this sportsbook that decided to do a calendar photo shoot with their senior female managers in sexy poses.
‘And this calendar was distributed to their players.
‘They were selling their women executives as sex symbols to their players, it was appalling.’
This drew gasps from the other women who could not believe what they were hearing.
Micky said she thought that sort of thing could happen in an environment perceived as male dominated, where the women felt pressure to fit in.
‘Some women could almost go to the extreme of thinking: ‘‘I’m offended by nothing, I’m one of the boys, it’s fine, sort of thing’’.
‘And I’ve probably been guilty of some of that myself in the past,’ admitted Micky.
Donna agreed and said that when you ‘go through your career, for me I have looked at my stance on different things and thought: ‘‘Where did that 20-something woman go who challenged the dealing room because they had a meeting in a strip club?’’
‘Where did that person go over the years?’
Now Donna says that her ‘natural rule’ is that if something offends her then you have to speak up.
She said: ‘I don’t think it hurts for women to let people know that there is a line that should not be crossed.’
Jennifer said: ‘It’s nice to be feminine and I think that we are more feminine than we were 30 years ago.
‘I think in some ways being proud of who we are as a gender is good and that we can express ourselves more freely is fantastic, especially in our part of the world.’
Jennifer said she is half Swedish, where 30 per cent of directors are women so there were ‘less of these type of discussions. It’s a very equal society [in Sweden] but it’s been like that since childhood.
‘But my second point is that when it comes to expressing themselves women in general, and there are exceptions, tend to do that more diplomatically.’
She added that a woman tends to be criticised more for speaking out.
This led the women to discuss gender stereotypes.
Liz said: ‘When a man speaks up it’s assertive. When a woman does it she’s aggressive.’
Liz added: ‘It is a little depressing. To speak up on an issue with authority and knowledge only to be told that you are just being aggressive.
Jennifer admitted there could be competitiveness among a lot of women in some parts of the working situation. But she added: ‘We don’t have a problem with it because of our positions.’
She also acknowledged there could be some women ‘who could be difficult with each other. But I’ve not had that experience personally.’
Micky asked: ‘But are we being unfair in our expectations of other women – do we expect a sisterhood, whereas men expect it to be ‘‘every man for himself’’?’
Donna said she is part of a group at work where women could discuss confidential matters and other matters that concern them.
Jennifer said she gets a lot of support from other women in senior positions. And moral support too.
‘I get that from my male friends too but certainly from women who help you to believe in yourself.
‘It gives you confidence to believe in who you are because you have that circle of friends.’
Micky then mentioned the importance of female role models who are peers.
Lawyer Susan mentioned women who tended to gravitate to certain roles: ‘Women I know [in the gambling sector] tend to be on the regulatory and compliance side rather than the executive, operational and particularly creative development side.
‘The men, they will let you in a bit, they will let you do the bit that allows you to be conscientious but not the bit that requires imagination.’
The women were agreed that men tended to be more involved in the creative side, devising the games for eGaming companies.
The panel were asked by Micky: ‘Do you think that is because women in general don’t tend to study IT?’
Liz said she discovered from discussions with other females the perception that women don’t tend to do maths and ‘I was stunned by that.’
And she added that in her experience, there is a perception on the part of recruiters and agencies, that women did not tend to go in for shift work either.
The disparity between men and women in science and technology was certainly a talking point, agreed the women in the roundtable.
Micky said according to the figures from the 2011 census (currently the most recent available, but the 2016 census should be released shortly), the resident employed population in the Isle of Man is 23,000 males and 20,000 females.
‘So it is broadly even but when you look at scientific and technology professionals there are 1,300 of them and 1,122 of those are men.
‘So that tells a story.’
Donna told how she went to a women in the workplace seminar in Westminster last year and the speakers were brilliant and it was recognised that some changes were needed at the education end.
Sandra Skuszka, who works with Micky in KPMG’s eGaming team, said: ‘You gravitated towards what you were good at in school anyway and generally girls gravitated more towards English language rather than maths. I personally went to the maths side.’
Jennifer Houghton said: ‘At university I was the only female studying maths at a senior level and this is going back 30 years.
‘There is a natural inclination for women to go to the arts and English but it is complex.
‘Even in Sweden where there is less of a gender gap the males move more towards IT developers. My brother runs an IT company and the men are the developers.’
Susan added: ‘It’s a journey that a lot of people have had to go on.
‘My mother was at law school and was one of two women in her class of 50
‘It took a generation to bring parity in law schools.’
Susan went on to say that with the way parental leave is structured ‘it is women that have the career break.
‘If you have two or three children over five years you may have missed three out of those five years [at work] and there has been a gap.’
Donna said this was something they had researched at PokerStars – as maternity and paternity leave are out of step with each other.
Jennifer referred to Sweden where there was an organised crèche system that kicks in enabling women with youngsters to go to work.
Susan said: ‘It’s often the case that it’s the women who patch things together and there can be this expectation that women will sort things out, for example if a child is ill. But I think things are changing.’
Micky said she suspected if a man was to announce to his work colleagues: ‘‘Oh, I have to go and look after my sick child.’’, eyebrows might be raised.
‘Whereas a woman would say the same thing and they would say: ‘‘Oh, that’s alright, off you go.’’ So we are creating the stereotype right there.’
Liz said she had one child and felt a lot of pressure to return to work quickly. She returned to work after six weeks feeling that she couldn’t leave it any longer as she would be left behind.
‘I felt I had to go back and be 20 times better than the others and I was just exhausted.’
Micky said that for many male partners at KPMG, globally and locally, their wives don’t work.
But her husband stopped working at the end of last year ‘and it was really interesting to see people’s response to that.
‘Some people questioned him and asked how our marriage was and said things like: ‘‘It can’t be easy for Micky to be the breadwinner.’’
‘Why would that be different to him being the breadwinner?!?
‘All we are doing there is saying : ‘‘Our lives are so busy, let’s structure things differently”. The thing is - if it was the other way round nobody would have batted an eyelid.’
The group, some others of whom had husbands who do not work, agreed that it takes a man with a pretty strong sense of his own identity to cope with that role reversal, even now.
Jennifer said that women do tend to multitask more than men - ‘it’s the way we are wired.’
She added that women seemed to cope better at multitasking.
But this led the lawyer Susan to say: ‘I do wonder about multitasking. I think women are better at it but I do wonder if that is because we have had to be better.
‘Juggling multiple roles, you just have to [multi-task efficiently].’
Sandra said: ‘Things and perceptions are changing.
‘I think the younger men in the office will take time out and share the childcare and the responsibilities.
‘As people come up through the ranks on to boards, then the perceptions will change and certainly childcare will change.’
But Micky said unconscious bias in the boardroom was an issue.
Micky raised the question of whether there should be quotas.
Donna said: ‘Quotas are an emotive issue.’
There was a perception among women that they did not want to be seen as a quota woman.
Susan: ‘There is a space for women only events and women focused events. But as Micky said earlier the men have to come on this journey too and to understand what we are saying.
‘Often the bias women encounter is unconscious, and if you raise it with them [men] they are surprised and mortified.
‘They say: ‘‘Thank you for pointing that out to us. I hadn’t meant it to be like that, I’m so sorry.’’ ’
Liz said: ‘We have to have men come on board to work with us, it doesn’t help if women go into a corner and have a little moanfest.
‘I like picking people’s brains for research purposes. It was interesting to get very strong defensive reactions from men that I trusted and hoped to get sensible conversations with. I did manage to get past this by making it clear that I was just trying to understand rather than make criticism’
Donna said: ‘In our female directors Lean In Circle of women we are now about to invite two senior men to join our circle who represent an area where there are no senior female leaders.
‘We are ready for the next step.
‘You can’t just be in a dark corner.’
The discussion widened to look at the challenges of work in the gaming industry
Jennifer pointed out that there are certain limitations within the industry that they are in.
And it was certainly challenging to work in certain other cultures around the world.
Liz pointed out the different cultures in Korea and Japan for women.
The discussion also turned to networking situations and there was a general question fired from Liz: ‘Who plays golf?’
Susan replied that networking for social events tended to be male dominated or in areas of male interest.
‘That’s where they make connections to move on in their careers.’
Liz replied: ‘Who would spend half a day on an 18-hole golf course? But she added: ‘If I knew the amount of business that would come out of it then probably I would!’
Susan said: ‘If the events are focused on sports and drinking . . . then in the past I’ve heard men say the women can have a makeup evening!!’
Micky told a story of how she went to conferences that had a programme for spouses, which were clearly for ‘wives’.
‘I would say: ‘‘And what about my husband?’’ Will he make jewellery, what will he do?’
Susan: ‘The question is raised: ‘‘How do women network?’’ ’
Donna: ‘Most women have busy lives. They want to go home after work and do what they want to do. Relax with families, go for a run whatever.
‘So it’s a challenging thing if women don’t want to go to dinner or play golf.’
Liz said drinking seemed to be part and parcel of networking in the Isle of Man.
She said: ‘That’s where the deal is going to be done. I love a drink don’t get me wrong, it’s a significant part of the business culture of the Isle of Man that should change for men and women. How can it be healthy?’
Donna said there is a bank ‘where they have recognised not all people want to play 18 holes of golf’ during networking events, and that they have had a really positive response to their different approach to business events.’
Jennifer said the executive dinner scene had changed in the 12 years she has been in the island.
‘It was much more male dominated years ago. Now there’s a good mix of speakers including women.
Micky raised the question of asking how interesting it is that a lot of women tend to end up in compliance and admin roles in eGaming and not operational, and that is as true in trader roles in the gambling industry.
‘I spoke to a woman in a big eGaming operator whose explanation for their lack of women traders was that women were not interested in sports. And that was why they did not work on the trading floor.’
Donna said: ‘We look at things such as gender neutral interview panels, that sort of thing. Things that can influence to get people through the door.’
Sandra asked: ‘Would hours worked make a difference in giving jobs to women?’
This prompted Donna to suggest that ‘slogans such as ‘‘play hard, work hard’’ were not going to attract women generally.’
And Liz said: ‘Women are not going to be interested in working 24/7.’
Susan pointed out: ‘That may only be a perception. Think about nurses, they work the ultimate anti-social hours and yet there has been no problem - nursing has been female dominated for years.’
Then general questions were asked about the culture of the Isle of Man.
Sandra said: ‘In the Isle of Man we have a high rate of employment so the pool is less and maybe that has something to do with it.’
Liz said: ‘I get the feeling of competition in that we are all competing against each other [to attract women staff].’
Jennifer: ‘I think it has to be a generation gap.
‘People of our generation have had to work longer hours and maybe the younger generation are less inclined. For better or worse.
Maybe it is a case of some people saying: ‘‘It’s five o’clock sharp and why am I still sitting here?’’ ’
Susan: ‘The millennials and ‘Generation Y, they see the model we worked by and they don’t want to do that and who is to say they are wrong.’
Donna raised a question about advertisements that specifically ask for women to apply.
Lydia said: ‘Unconscious bias is a real part of recruitment and promotion of women into wider operational roles. There was a McKinsey report in 2011 that pointed out that men are promoted on potential whereas women are promoted on achievement. But I think that achievement in a pigeon-holed role is less likely to result in promotion to broader roles.
‘For example, a man will be more likely to be promoted out of finance or marketing, which tend to be female-dominated, because men are perceived as having potential, whereas the women are left in these roles. That’s sometimes exacerbated when women excel in those roles, as they will be viewed as specialists. It’s a little bit of doomed if you do, doomed if you don’t.’
Susan said: ‘Look back to the toys you were given as a child. I went to a wonderful exhibition of Ladybird illustrations - 50 years of Ladybird books.
‘I went with two male friends and we each gravitated back to the books that we knew when we were children.
‘And I said: ‘‘My goodness. I did not know that Ladybird did books about scientists. I got the history and fairy tales and the boys got the carpentry and the oil refinery. I got shopping with mother and you got helping father with the carpentry.
‘Now if that is the way you are being pushed . . .’
Liz: ‘Compare the statistics from an all girls school and an all boys school. I went to an all girls school and I did maths, physics, biology and chemistry so I never went down that path.’
Sandra pointed out: ‘With the computer generation these days children do have more choice.’
Liz: ‘It would be good to see statistics of whether all girls schools get more choice than mixed etc.’
Jennifer said: ‘Some women have a glass ceiling they create themselves.
‘It’s perceived and they limit themselves while men will take the chance.
‘And sometimes women as a group don’t always do themselves a favour.’
Liz: ‘I found an interesting statistic that shows that in Ghana 55 per cent of entrepreneurs and start up businesses are women.
‘It’s some pathetic figure in the UK but I was fascinated that we are sitting here with all these privileges and education and that women are not making the best of it.’
The women then discussed a recent BBC report on pay rises.
Donna said there was a perception out there that women don’t put themselves up for pay rises. She said the study found that was not true but that women were less likely to get the pay rises.
Lydia said: ‘It’s not just a perception, there have been wide ranging previous studies that show women don’t ask for pay rises.
‘We don’t ask for promotions and we don’t ask for pay rises.
‘We don’t ask to move location. It feels like men are given opportunities denied to women but the reality is that women don’t know they need to ask for them.
‘And it’s very much a reality.’
Donna praised the island’s organisation of International Women’s Day earlier this year.
‘It was amazing and the women involved in it were fantastic.’
Micky said she was ‘blown away by how many women went to that.’
She pointed out the Chamber of Commerce has a female chief executive and a female president. And it’s 50/50 in the chamber members.
‘I do think we do need to be visible and active. That’s how you challenge some of this imposter syndrome or lack of confidence.
‘And we have become well aware of a real lack of statistics in the Isle of Man.’
She said it was clear that some form of measurement of the impact of women in eGaming was needed.
‘It is important to measure the statistics and say: ‘‘This is the benchmark for the Island.’’ ’
Donna said: ‘To move anything like this along you have to have targets. And you have to know where you are.’
Susan said: ‘We’ve touched upon perceptions here - the perception that women don’t gamble etc. We need the statistics, a measurement to say this perception is right or wrong.’
Sandra said: ‘And we have to understand that the Isle of Man is a small place.
Micky replied: ‘If we could have some kind of initiative in the Isle of Man to gather statistics from all the gaming companies. That might then start something more widely.
‘It would be a useful place to start. And I don’t think government are going to tackle it [compiling statistics on women in eGaming] any time soon, given the other tasks facing them.’
Jennifer said: ‘It could cover cultural backgrounds and divisions in departments, that sort of thing.’
Donna said her company’s special group on gender started earlier this year and more than half the workforce now completed training on unconscious bias.
‘It’s training to check all kinds of things. You could choose to do all kinds of different things including gender, race, weight, age, etc.
‘There will be some resistance.’
Donna added: ‘There is a case that the business will do better if there is diversity.
‘You need visible and vocal support from the top and we are lucky in that we have that.’
The women were agreed that the government and gaming regulator welcome eGaming companies with open arms - not something that happens in many other places.
The women agreed to keep in touch and work together to move forward their plans to compile statistics.